UDLCO: Metapsych full throttle on NMC videos, transparency accountability and our Orwellian future

2/7, 9:35 AM] xyz : Dear friends,

A small query regarding Video Recording of the forth coming

annual Examinations.

Is it necessary for all colleges including permitted and recognised? Or recognised colleges need not do video recording.

Regards

[2/7, 9:36 AM] abc : In my view, recognised college need not ?

But I may be wrong also

[2/7, 9:41 AM] xyz  : Necessary, if renewal of recognition is pending

[2/7, 10:24 AM] abc : Every thing is vague in that notification.... Not even mentioned that all colleges or those who are having inspections for permission or recognition have to send video recording.... Whether to send video recording of practical examination or theory or both.... The circular highly undermines the autonomy of the universities.... In my opinion NMC should abolish all state medical universities and start a centralized university and award degrees instead of encroaching on the autonomy of the health universities .... On one side NMC regulations are compromising the standards of medical education and on other side it want colleges to answer whether they are maintaining the standard of assessment in examination which is actually the job of university...... Point 3 is the most erratic decision by NMC..... In future ppl will not join teaching jobs in medical colleges because of so much of useless work allotted to teachers after NMC took over MCI(BOG) .... The work of students reduced as passing became easier but work of teacher increased to a great proportion.... My personal view...

[2/7, 10:30 AM] wwe : Very true

[2/7, 10:30 AM] kcl : Rightly said

[2/7, 11:37 AM] rbc : Who will operate/possess the camera? 📷

🤔 Activity: Unintended../Willful Act

Example:

Summons from University 🎓 states to examiners

"... You are requested not to use a mobile phone 📱📷 during the examination and strictly avoid taking selfies with the candidates."

I mean the responsibility is to be fixed..🛠️  to maintain the chain of custody.

or Go Online...

[2/7, 4:59 PM] aap : Both Theory & Practical, is this really feasible to record practical exams of 3-4 subjects happening on the same day, unless what they meant is CCTV visuals

[2/7, 5:01 PM] fra  : Not CCTV it video recording

[2/7, 5:03 PM] gha : Video recording entire practicals with 4 examiners which might happen simultaneously at different areas, will require 3-4 cameraman for one subjects and for MBBS in each phase we have exams of all subjects of that phase in the same day...doesn't make sense

[2/7, 5:06 PM] gta : Yes difficult but we are doing since last 6-7 year.

[2/7, 5:08 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Is getting 4 to 5 camera wielding interns from every department such a big deal? 

Only issue is we need to teach them film making too in the curriculum. We do try to do that but as it's an elective exercise, not all interns are well trained

[2/7, 5:08 PM] eta : Sir , do you record the entire practicals or just Viva?

[2/7, 5:09 PM] Rakesh Biswas: We too are doing it. Not as an NMC requirement but to improve transparency and accountability in the ecosystem

[2/7, 5:10 PM] noobey : Those who have been successfully doing this,please do share...how you do it, so that we all benefit from the knowledge

[2/7, 5:13 PM] Rakesh Biswas: 

[2/7, 10:49 AM] Rahul healthcare 2.0: This means cctv feeds from exam center classrooms?

Or these are 1:1 vivas?

[2/7, 10:51 AM] Rakesh Biswas: We use our cameras to film the examiners and their examination encounters wherever the encounter happens

[2/7, 10:52 AM] Rahul healthcare 2.0: This could be uploaded on Google photos/drive.. 

Do we have an existing subscription for Google or Microsoft for email etc for the college?

[2/7, 10:54 AM] Rakesh Biswas: We upload it on YouTube followed by structuring them on blogspot. Let me search for the link to our last exam

[2/7, 10:59 AM] Rahul healthcare 2.0: Ohh we put it out publicly? I guess unlisted on YouTube. 

Could it be made private and shared with NMC only per requirement? Else this stays permanently publicly on the web.. some folks may not do well in exams, they may not want that on the web forever to haunt them. Not to mention how Google openai msft algorithms will use it and tag you along it.

[2/7, 11:04 AM] Rakesh Biswas: Well formative assessment is about recognizing how the learning curve is developing and while none of us would like to look back at our performances during our wanderings in the valleys before we learned to climb it's steep slopes, we also look forward to academic transformations where our weaker and vulnerable phase is also recorded in our online learning portfolios till we become strong enough to not feel uncomfortable about our past weaknesses. 

Here's the last exam

 https://finalmbbspart2gmpracticals.blogspot.com/2023/03/2k18-batch-university-practical-exams_29.html?m=1 and it's not just the videos but also the links to each student's online learning portfolio

[2/7, 11:06 AM] Rakesh Biswas: We were not doing it for NMC before it got this idea but we were driven by our own conviction that this will be beneficial to the Indian learning ecosystem that is currently in hiding compared to other global learning ecosystems

[2/7, 11:15 AM] Rahul healthcare 2.0:

 Very well collated. 

Then this can continue? Any challenges?

[2/7, 1:23 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Not yet challenged

[2/7, 2:17 PM] Rahul healthcare 2.0: No I meant operational challenges in execution.. else same process would work right?

[2/7, 2:35 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Previously it was our lone push for transparency and accountability so there were no operational issues as it wasn't valued anyways. 

This time it's due to the NMC pull and will be the first time these videos may be valued officially and hence we shall likely receive more admin support to email it officially to NMC as protocolized there although again we shall continue our parallel workflow of showcasing it with the online learning portfolios to drive future learning transformations

[2/7, 5:09 PM] nobey : Exam should ideally conducted without any external visitors, now we will have 20 cameraman on the day 😅

[2/7, 5:10 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Why should there be no external visitors? 

In fact this is a public exam and can be relayed like a test match! 😃

[2/7, 5:13 PM] nb : On a lighter note, We might endup needing to take separate consent  and ethics clearance in future from patients for this telecast😃

[2/7, 5:17 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Oh that's a must! 

Please check our patient informed consent forms here 👇

medicinedepartment.blogspot.com/2020/05/informed-patient-consent-and.html?m=1

[2/7, 5:28 PM] ksrtc : Is there any scope and place of Students and Teachers freedom and consents !!! Or else they will be slogining endlessly. Should there be so much of microdictations and micromanagement??? After the institution is granted all permissions... And for those awaiting permissions, is the future going to be decided on videos ??

[2/7, 5:30 PM] ksrtc : Just a small calculation for the 150 admission batch:

5 hrs of daily examination recording x 4 days x 14 subjects x 700 medical colleges come to approx. *1,96,000 Hrs* of video footage *per year* which will require 22 years to watch if someone is watching round the clock.

[2/7, 5:32 PM] TSRTC : Difficult to record like this sir..with patients and body parts, how can we record?

[2/7, 5:36 PM] Rakesh Biswas: It's only for legal dispute. If a student question's the validity of his her particular encounter, the video can be reviewed by a board

[2/7, 5:35 PM] dbase : Also what about privacy of patients and confidentiality

[2/7, 5:37 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Oh that's a must! 

Please check our patient informed consent forms here 👇

medicinedepartment.blogspot.com/2020/05/informed-patient-consent-and.html?m=1

[2/7, 5:42 PM] ksrtc : It is a huge waste of resources including so many man-hours for this which is just an assumption and presumption for the future...

[2/7, 6:04 PM] TSRTC : True . So much of power wastage, storage wastage.. indirectly natural resources wastage

[2/7, 6:05 PM] ap'srtc : Is NMC trying to prove that all these years exams were not conducted properly and now recording of events can change everything.

Or is it creating job opportunities for others during the examinations as well.

[2/7, 6:11 PM] brta : Future they might introduce approved event managers for conducting exams with Pre exam, exam and post exam photoshoot packages,food etc 😅

/7, 5:28 PM] ksrtc : Is there any scope and place of Students and Teachers freedom and consents !!! Or else they will be slogining endlessly. Should there be so much of microdictations and micromanagement??? After the institution is granted all permissions... And for those awaiting permissions, is the future going to be decided on videos ??

[2/7, 6:14 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Not at all it's the future. 

Also it's big data that as you rightly pointed out definitely would be unfathomable by humans with limited man hours (life expectancies) but it could possibly be good food for AI who can analyze it and offer novel insights @⁨🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼⁩ 

for his expert inputs 

But I can totally see your point of view that it's pretty Orwellian. Although again this is already supposed to have happened according to him by 1984! He didn't realize we still probably need to wait till 2034!

[2/7, 6:17 PM] erst : If this is done for PGs it may have some meaningful impact, certainly not at the undergraduate level.

[2/7, 6:17 PM] Rakesh Biswas: It's all about metacognition! 

Big data that has been traditionally wasted down the drain will now be utilized to irrigate our manas bhoomi! 😃

[2/7, 6:19 PM] Rakesh Biswas: It's all about patients. UGs and PGs learn from the same patients regardless of how much they perceive according to their own priors that they build on

[2/7, 6:16 PM] grstc : Why is passing percentage of MD students rising

[2/7, 6:22 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Good question! 

Previously teachers didn't need video recordings to demonstrate their exam validity and consequently there were unaccounted casualties. Presently with improved tech driven transparency and accountability things have to become a level playing field. Hang on there and you may find the passing percentages reaching an optimum level as nothing has begun to be implemented yet. Picture abhi kafi baki hai

[2/7, 6:19 PM] erst : If placements for the medical graduates like for in engineering and marketing sector is plannned, then..,..........

[2/7, 6:30 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Engineers produce and market products! 

Medical graduates are trained only for maintenance and trouble shooting of thousands of years old hardware!

[2/7, 6:23 PM] 🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼: Academic integrity is a personal choice.

[2/7, 6:24 PM] Rakesh Biswas: A lot of data will demonstrate how this personal choice is exercised in a now public exam

[2/7, 6:30 PM] gr'stc : Data....how has nmc used our previous data

[2/7, 6:30 PM] Rakesh Biswas: That was largely fake and unusable! 😃

[2/7, 6:32 PM] Rakesh Biswas: The other angle to this question (learning point for me personally) is that how do we guard against deep fake AI generated data?

[2/7, 6:32 PM] gr'stc : Ok tell us how many pg doctors does country need....any data

[2/7, 6:37 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Very interesting question! 

We have always been obsessed with doctor patient ratios @⁨Shivaswamy Comm Med⁩ but I guess in a medical education deprived nation the moot question should be how many trained doctors (aka PGs) are needed for how many people! Again this will need a complicated answer as now the question will become what is the population for a single ENT pg to cater to and what is the population for a single medicine PG or biochemistry PG to cater to and the numbers will be different in each instance?

[2/7, 6:35 PM] Shivaswamy Comm Med: Rather than sending neutral Observers, the regulating agency can depute both external examiners of their choice from eligible list without prior intimation. Both Regulatory authority and Universities will save money, no need for separate observers, video record, no malpractice. Headcount also can be done after exams, correlating with AEBAS. 🤐😷

[2/7, 6:55 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Examiners of their choice from eligible list!! 

All examiners qualified faculty in 700 medical colleges of India are eligible! A difficult choice indeed!! Perhaps even more than the original assessment!

[2/7, 6:56 PM] Sarmishtha Physiology Prof Meu: I presume that all NMC members are doctors themselves and they are coming up with mad ideas like these, which keep the people on the ground discussing day in and day out ...🙀🤷🏻‍♀️

[2/7, 6:59 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Hopefully they have an understanding of the basic principle of any education :

It's just a tool to solve real problems 

For medical education :

It's largely a tool to solve patient problems and through metacognition societal problems

[2/7, 7:32 PM] Sarmishtha Physiology Prof Meu: If they had slightest understanding of education/ pedagogy/ adult learning principles...they would not have listed outcomes as competencies , 

137 alone for Physiology

keeping the TLA didactic lecture heavy 

Making compromises with selection and assessment strategies for progression🙏

[2/7, 7:35 PM] Rakesh Biswas: Yes as a body NMC can't be expected to have that understanding. I'm sure they simply outsourced it to meu members who went ahead with their lists in gay abandon! 😃

[2/7, 7:43 PM] v'srtc : The blind guys and the elephant…!!

[2/7, 7:46 PM] Sarmishtha Physiology Prof Meu: How apt, did you make this?

Kudos👏🏻👏🏻

[2/7, 7:47 PM] v'srtc : Yeah…

Just went through all the discussion and came up with this..! To summarise 😂

[2/7, 7:48 PM] Sarmishtha Physiology Prof Meu: Lovely👏🏻👏🏻

[2/7, 8:01 PM] v'srtc  : We are in a world where the mindset is : 

very vital /academic and important information (eg. academic journals) are behind a paywall…!!

Rubbish mis/disinformation are free ; propagated , promoted free of cost…!!0:

[2/7, 5:30 PM] ksrtc : Just a small calculation for the 150 admission batch:

5 hrs of daily examination recording x 4 days x 14 subjects x 700 medical colleges come to approx. *1,96,000 Hrs* of video footage *per year* which will require 22 years to watch if someone is watching round the clock.

[2/7, 8:55 PM] 🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼: So no one human being will view the videos, in fact no human  needs to see any video if you use AI to analyse. There are video surveillance systems available which need not involve any human videographers also in the exams.

Privacy will be an issue as we will be recording actual patient examination in clinical cases but otherwise there will be no issues, in fact it will be good for the students and teachers too. No one can abuse either party.

Ultimately with conversational AI you would not need examiners to do the evaluation and marking. 

Okay before you think your job is endangered, please think of the photo studio person and the guys who used to run STD/ISD/PCO!! They all moved on to something else.

Of course you can be part of building these AI machines 😉

[2/7, 8:57 PM] 🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼: We are grossly underestimating the NMC and the members, having known few of them personally, they are genuine simple people, highly educated and mature. The perspective from Dwarka is very different from where we stand.

[2/7, 8:59 PM] 🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼: As perhaps one of the largest groups of Medical Educators maybe we can request NMC leadership to do a AMA (ask me anything) one of these days.

[2/7, 9:01 PM] srtc : Instead of controlling teachers, let NMC people control the quality of students entering medical education. Many medical students want to get a prefix as Dr. and a suffix as MBBS. Pathetic condition. Why 40:60 for passing, earlier 50:50 was better

[2/7, 9:01 PM] v'srtc : It’s not underestimating anybody in anyways..!!

It’s an analogy of sorts to to depict the fact that the board members are yet to get a hang of how to go about the complexities of medical education in a country that’s that’s as diverse and heterogenous as ours..!! 

There are genuine people outside the system who are genuinely concerned about the state of affairs and there is absolutely nothing wrong in being critical…

[2/7, 9:35 PM] Prof Prashant Oman Peds: It’s anybody’s guess if NMC stalwarts considered and/or working on the idea of using AI technology to analyze the videos of med schools across India… I only hope it doesn’t turn out to be another case of nano-GPS chip in ₹2000 currency note. 

Drawing a parallel with STD shop keepers’ case may inadvertently diminish the complexities n responsibilities inherent in medical education and assessment.

[2/7, 9:05 PM] ap'srtc : They had Initiated an online faculty profile for declaration form. Don’t know why it was scrapped . It was a good move .

[2/7, 10:23 PM] 🩺🇮🇳🇮Jaideep Rayapudi🥼: AI is not magical, the way fake faculty disappears from Colleges after inspections and how examiners decide students' fate in the Saree shop or the Bar Restaurant is magical. NMC would not go to such lengths if there was academic integrity among the academics 😉